The Lens: UK Responsible Business Podcast host Sarah Travers is joined by Shuchika Sahay, Chief Human Resources Officer at Firstsource and Sabrina Wuersch, Product Manager Milling Solutions, Bühler Group, Switzerland.
In this episode, they explore gender, diversity and inclusion in the workplace, championing kindness and so much more.
They discuss the working world for women, inclusion in all forms, and how employers can achieve a gender-balanced workforce.
Sarah Travers: Welcome to The Lens with me, Sarah Travers. The Lens is a business in the community podcast in partnership with One Young World. Now, we truly have an international flavor to The Lens today. I’m delighted that our guests are Shuchika Sahay, Chief Human Resources Officer at Firstsource based in Mumbai, and Sabrina Wuersch, Product Manager, Milling Solutions at Bühler Group, and you’re joining us today from Switzerland.
Now, in this episode, we’re set to explore gender diversity and inclusion in the workplace, empathy and so much more. So, let’s find out, and get stuck into the conversation. Well welcome both of you. Let’s find out a little bit, first of all, about the people that we’ve actually got on The Lens today, and Shuchika, let’s start with you. Home I know is Mumbai, but I know you were in the UK recently meeting some of your team, but could you tell us first of all a bit about yourself, and how you’ve become Chief Human Resources Officer for Firstsource.
Shuchika Sahay: Thank you for having me. I am an HR professional at heart and trained for the job. I grew up in a very small town in India, and both my parents were working, and there was heavy emphasis on education. I trained for HR. I became an HR person. I had a 20-year nonstop, no break career in HR, and when the opportunity was right, I got this role, so here I am living my passion, living my purpose.
Sarah: Living the dream, that sounds wonderful, and, you know, your-your upbringing sounds like you had a lot of opportunities, but I think that wouldn’t have been the case for-for a lot of girls, perhaps, from where you were from.
Shuchika: I belong to a very educated family in-in a small town in India. So, yes, privileged in that sense in a country where this– that may not be a-a natural orientation, or a natural choice for a lot of people, and yet that is changing. So, there are more people who are getting educated, more people who are joining the workforce than ever. The talent the country’s helping and accentuating that journey, so, yes and no.
When I went to college, everybody around me was writing either engineering, or medicine, or preparing for the civil services, which is what you do to get into bureaucracy in this country. So, I wouldn’t say that, uh, it- it’s been like out ordinary or extraordinary. I mean, it- it’s-it’s pretty much how things play out here. I-I don’t know if that makes sense to you.
Sarah: Absolutely, and your mother, she was a teacher. So, obviously, education and doing well was very much part of the DNA.
Shuchika: Oh, yes, absolutely. My mother was a math teacher. I’d been wrapped on the knuckles for my multiplications and my division, and I think I give a huge credit to my mother’s vision, and her way of life to shape us the way we are today. She-she was pretty on ball with her motivation and everything. Uh, I didn’t know I would end up being a Chief Human Resource Officer, but I knew that I had to go out and make my mark in the world. Every woman in my house, every second woman in my house– in my family was working, so not working and not sort of honoring that legacy was not an option.
Sarah: No, absolutely. Having those role models when you’re young, um, you can’t be what you can’t see. That was very much obviously at the forefront of your mother’s mind. Okay, I’ll come back to you in-a second and find out a little bit more about Firstsource, but, Sabrina, let’s bring you in at this point. Tell us a little bit about you then, and your background in Switzerland.
Sabrina Wuersch: Yes, absolutely. One of my biggest role models was my grand dad actually, because I thought it was really cool that he get to fix everything when something was broken. And I thought, um, want to make something like that as well, so whenever something pops up, I- I’d be able to repair it. And that’s why then I chose to become a mechanical assembler, and did my apprenticeship, uh, program in Switzerland with Bühler, actually, the company I’m still working at today.
Having like role models in place, but not female ones, male ones, so this worked out really well. So, I was always like doing some-some stuff in the basement because we had a little shop there with some tools, and I just developed some things at a very young age, and I was always really fascinated about STEM in general. And my girl’s dream was to become an engineer one day, and make a change in the world, and I got a bit off that, but I’m still kind of in it, uh, working as a product manager today.
So, I did my engineering degree as an industrial engineer, and continued working as a product manager in my current role where I am basically responsible to make sure that we have safe food in the world, and having a direct influence on the engineering projects for new machines. So, I think I kind of got to my girl’s dream actually, if we could say it like that.
Sarah: Absolutely incredible, and I know you’re the global co-lead of women in STEM within your company. Tell us a little bit more about the Bühler Group. Um, I was looking it up last night when I was preparing for this today, and I was blown away about how much you do.
Sabrina: Yes. It’s very– a very great company with a great purpose to work for, I-I would say, and this is what’s also the most important thing for me to choosing Bühler as a company, because you really have a direct influence in the world when you work there. Um, so, Bühler is a machine manufacturer basically for our customers so they produce end food.
So, we’re not directly producing food, but we are providing the equipment so they can produce the food that’s basically then served on our plates, but not only in the food sector, they’re also active in the non-food business. So, on a daily basis, every one of us already got in touch with the bit of technology from the morning, looking at your phone, because you got certain coating, uh, technologies in the screens of our phone.
Going over to the breakfast cereal, to the coffee that we have, for the pet foods that your animal might be eating, going over even in the evening when you drive home from work in your car, and then, having an after work beer with your friends. So, literally, everywhere, uh, where you’re eating something or moving around, uh, you get in touch with our technology, which I think is-is quite cool, actually.
Sarah: It’s extremely cool, and for those of you listening in, do check out Bühler Group, you will be amazed, and 10,500 employees in 140 countries.
Sabrina: Yes. Worldwide. [chuckle]
Sarah: So, you’ve got staff worldwide, um, how many of them are women?
Sabrina: Recent number that I got in-in mind was 17%, we’re not that much actually. And this was also part of the reason why we, like a group of girls in our company, we’re starting the women in STEM initiative to change STEM actually. Because, we feel like since we have such a big impact in the world, we can’t leave it to the men for the site where we’re going in the future, and we need to make it more attractive for women to come in just to show them that STEM can be really cool.
Starting from a young age for-for young girls, actually that we go into schools, and-and talk to them about STEM, showing them hard engineering stuff, which is mathematics and everything. So, it can be everything basically within the company, and really making it more attractive and take away the burden to put this, uh, foot into the stem world. And then also going over to recruiting the right women that were already choosing the path in going into STEM. So, getting the graduates from the universities, going over then in the [unintelligible 00:07:50] to retain the women workforce that we have in the company so that we don’t lose, uh, the talent that we already built up.
Sarah: What difference do you think you’re making in, you’ve talked about 17%, you’ve been at Bühler, uh, for 10 years, I think. Uh, obviously, maybe you-you haven’t headed up the whole diversity push, and the group promoting STEM, but do you think the message is getting through? Are you getting more people applying for jobs?
Sabrina: I don’t really know the impact that we-we were having, because we’re really young. So, we were only there for one and a half year, but I think the most important thing is to start. Everyone has to start somewhere, and what we believe is most important, to have role models in place. I had my family, and-and the male part of my family, but I think for many young girls, it would be important that you can just have someone that you can look up to.
That just makes the whole process a bit easier, ’cause you’re like, that’s where I wanna be. And I think this is the most important thing, to really promote these role models that we have in the company that have an amazing career that are there, and just to put them out there, and-and think about them you know.
Sarah: Well, when you listen to you talking so passionately about what you do, it definitely is inspirational. Uh, Shuchika, just bringing you in on that point as well, listening to Sabrina talking about the passion she has, uh-
Sarah: -for where she works, tell us a little bit about Firstsource, and what it is that you do, and the challenges that you’re facing in-in recruitment. Maybe there are no challenges at all.
Shuchika: [laughs] It wouldn’t be fun if it’s not challenging, right?
Sabrina: But, first a little about Firstsource. We are an Indian headquarter global, uh, organization. We have operations in countries like US, Mexico, UK, uh, following into Europe, and India, and Philippines. Our gender ratio today is 45% women, and that’s like percentage of women is 45%. US is a great– is a big contributor to that. Asia needs to catch up, uh, on that. Obviously, Asian economies are traditionally more male dominated. So, there is that difference that you would see across our markets. We are a business process management organization. We work with firms in communications, media, technology, healthcare, banking and financial services, and we take their processes, and we run that for them. That industry is changing, customers asking for far more value, and that’s created an interesting challenge as you grow, you should be able to add that value to the customer through technology, and through digitization. So that’s one big, uh, transformation that you see happening in the organization.
Growth itself creates its own set of challenges. So, we grew about 14% this year. When you are expanding the way you are expanding, you are transforming, and your workforce attitudes are changing. One, there is that challenge of pandemic, and how people have responded to that towards their own lifestyle, towards their own health, and how they have wanted organization to play a more vital role in those things. That’s a challenge at one level, the other challenge coming out of pandemic, and-and, uh, towards the end of it was the great resignation that all of us were facing.
Shuchika: Uh, so, uh, there was this whole need to sort of talk to the workforce more, listen to them more, understand what would make them stay, and-and act on it pretty quickly, that I-I think half-half the heads of HR across Europe, US, and even Asia were consumed with. I was no different. I-I had the same challenge. So, that’s the other thing, really?
Sarah: And you’ve talked about something there, that the great resignation, but when it comes to sort of HR leaders, I wonder what the figure is for the great resignation among HR leaders, because actually, the headache that you must have had, and the pressure that you were under to look after your workforce, to listen to them when in the last number of years, so much has been about technology, has been about data, but really, what we needed was that great recognition, isn’t that what’s it’s become known as now, that people need to be not just a figure, not just a-a statistic in a company, they need to be a real person, and that everybody is different. And as you’ve already said, that they care about things. They care about working for a company that cares about them. How did you cope with all of that pressure?
Shuchika: We are 27,000 people across the globe, and very honestly, I looked at it as an opportunity, because for the first time during pandemic, HR heads, apart from leaving their jobs and getting burnt out and all that you spoke about, for the first time, they found their own voice in this whole organization context. And that voice was the voice of employees. For the first time, your operations across the globe for many organizations were threatened, right?
They could shut down because people couldn’t come to work. And you were forced to take cognizance of that. You were forced to increase your IT spends, you were forced to start to look at people as people, and-and not just make an accounting– not just have an accounting view of them. And-and look for Firstsource, humanness has been a value ever since, but just the pace of digitization, and just the amount of things we did for employees during pandemic. Uh, and some of them are here to stay. I think it was a great opportunity for HR heads to push the people agenda forward.
I actually joked with someone that, you know, this is the time when we all have to be a little bit of Ben Affleck in that movie where he goes and saves, the hostage, Argo. He actually says, uh, “This is what I do. I rescue people.” I felt like that on so many days, I felt like I was living my purpose then. So, never waste a good crisis.
Sarah: Well, absolutely. And it sounds like you were the right person for the job. Others maybe not so fortunate. Purpose is-is massive here. And there’s a few things you raised there. If we look at diversity, inclusion, equality, let’s go back to being female. Okay. Let’s go back to looking at your careers. Let’s look at the barriers or challenges that you’ve experienced. Sabrina, you’ve already talked about having had such a-a positive role model in your grandfather. Would you say that you’ve come up against any barriers or challenges, even though you knew the career you wanted to go into?
Sabrina: Yes, absolutely. I mean, uh, I think the biggest challenge is that I was always like one of the only female in entrepreneurship, so that’s where it basically started. So, it’s just, you know, the topics that you talk about, if-if there’s an issue, who are you gonna talk to? And it’s all these things where you can feel a bit lonely, and a bit left out. I think, that’s one challenge, and that you always have to prove that you are the same, because certain tools are really heavy for me to lift. I had to ask for help. And then it was like, “Well, am I the right person for the job or not?” And you start questioning that, and you always put in the extra effort, um, to get the recognition as well, and-and prove yourself that it’s possible to do as women.
So, it’s always like the extra fight that you need to take. And-and that’s certainly not easy. But, on the other hand, I just knew that as long as I’m gonna rely on my skills, and things that I love, and-and my passion, it will get me where-where I have to be. And that was something that I always did. It worked out so far. So, I’m glad to hear that, but I wouldn’t say it was easy. [chuckles]
Sarah: And then I’m hearing a-a lot at the minute i-in conversations with women who are maybe going into different sectors where-where they do feel like the only female in the building, you’re talking about tools, why not change the tools, why not make a power tool easier to hold and lift, um, and think about designing them for all?
Sarah: Would you agree?
Sabrina: I would, uh, totally agree actually, and-and just make them a bit easier to grab, you know, because, if you have a big piece of metal that you need to put on a- on a big machine to make it work, and I can’t lift it because it was too heavy, maybe there is an easier way in designing that thing so everyone can do it.
Sarah: Yeah. I’ve been talking to a lot of people, uh, women working in construction, also a female welder recently, and she’s designed a whole new range of work wear. She’s seeing a market there for a business to get clothes that fit women, and look okay on them, and, you know, boots with steel toe caps that actually fit women’s feet. And I just thought, “Genius.”
Sabrina: I wish I could wear those back then. [laughs]
Sarah: Yes. They looked so cool as well. I love them.
Sarah: Shuchika, what about you? I mean, obviously, you’re incredibly impressive. You’ve risen to the top of your game, really, but, you know, what challenges or barriers have you faced, um, working as a woman, and how have you overcome them?
Shuchika: I think I’ve been a little bit naïve about this, or maybe I’ve been in a function like HR, where you’ve not had to, uh, lift, uh, heavy metal, or a tool, like listening to Sabrina, I’m like, “Oh my God. Yes, women.” It must be difficult for a woman to, uh– there’s this much you can do physically, right? So, I-I get that. I was very savvy about my allegiance to my resume, and what I needed to do at some particular stage.
I have had, uh, a career of 21 years. I have had 16 bosses. Out of that 16 bosses, about 9 or 10 were male, rest were female. And I do not think it would have been possible for me to reach here if I had not been supported equally by my male bosses. Sometimes when I’m asked the question, “Were you discriminated? Were there challenges?” I don’t have a real instance. In fact, I have only positive stories. The day I went on my mat-leave, I was in my nine months of my pregnancy. I was doing my role, and I was doing one more role. And when I went to my mat- leave, my manager called me into my room at this great bank that I was working in.
And he gave me a double-digit hike for someone who was going to be off work for six months. Uh, despite my savviness, and-and the person that I am, I-I did choke up. Right. Because you did not expect and anticipate that fairness, and you got that fairness. When I came back from my maternity leave, I was still at the top of my game. Uh, but you don’t keep senior-level positions wakened for so long. I was off for six months, and, um, I was 93 kgs. I was lactating, and I was in no situation to pedal with my CV at that stage. So, I looked for jobs internally, but everybody around me was so supportive.
The entire ecosystem was so supportive. Uh, so, there are times when situations sort of warrants you to become a-a little more, uh, smarter, savvier, and-and take the challenges in your own stride. Uh, but, I don’t think I was discriminated. I think it was just a situation that all of us were dealing with together. [crosstalk]
Sarah: Isn’t it interesting though that you felt surprised that you were getting treated fairly?
Shuchika: And I don’t know if that was to do with the ecosystem or my own perception of what’s going to happen. Sometimes a lot of this locus of control on what is happening to you for me has been internal. It has not been, uh, fee- that feeling of wrong, or that feeling of being unjust. I have this ability to step back and see how the world has changed around us. When my mother was working, she did not have the infrastructure to support her maternity. They-they had unisexual loos. They didn’t have bathrooms which were separate for women and men. I do not have any such challenges. You know, we are bestowed with daycare centers, and lactating rooms and all of that.
I have a five-year-old daughter. I don’t know what her gender perceptions would be of the world, but they would be very different from mine. So, I think this entire gender at the workplace is a journey. We’ll get better at it every day, and the more vocal we are today about our biases and our needs, the better the world will be for the next generation.
Sarah: What do you think, um, Firstsource is doing to make sure that they are thinking outside the box, and they are going away from their normal talent pool to look for employees?
Shuchika: We take inclusion very seriously. Inclusion is not just something nice to do, or support women, or support LGBTQ community. Inclusion drives innovation, and that drives commercial success for an organization like us. So, it’s a very integral part of what we want to do with business. You have more people in the room– I mean, just Sabrina and my experience are so different from each other. I actually learned from what she just said about, uh, heavy metal tool. I didn’t think of it, right? So you need to have groups of people whose experiences are very diverse from each other, and we are really working brick-by-brick to make that happen.
We run an I&D studio, which is inclusion and diversity studio in our organization, uh, where leaders sit, and they recognize what could be the different challenges around inclusion at the workforce with different groups of people, and redesign policies. We work through training programs, and we look at our data together. And that builds a lot of commitment around what we want to do, a lot of real-time focus and results, right?
Finally, when I want to like look back at this job three years down the line, I do want to believe I yearn for that change, and I do wanna believe I’ve made that change, and I’m– I can’t make that change alone. I’ve got- I’ve got to get the sponsorship from the CEO. So, he sits on the I&D studio. My team that runs the program sits on it, and-and then there are several other leaders who sit on it. And-and-and that I think, has given a lot of voice and power to what we are trying to do.
Initiatives are I– we would hire a woman’s only batch in markets where we can hire them. There are a lot of markets where you can’t do that kind of positive discrimination in your hiring process. Uh, and then we sort of give them more focus, and more peer-level network. We’ve run one or two mentorship program across the organization, we brought changes into our maternity leave policy. When we do any data in the organization, so suppose we are doing– Like right now we’re doing our bonus distribution, I actually sit with my team, and we look at, “How are we treating the maternity return cases? Are there any sort of discrimination that we need to check for?” And we just improve every bit of data, every bit of process, and every little action.
Sarah: So, what are you doing at Firstsource to make sure that you’re not just recruiting from the same pool all of the time? To make sure that you’re looking to other perhaps marginalized groups, not just talking about women here, talking about people from different ethnic backgrounds, cultures, people with disabilities, LGBTQ+, people even with a criminal record. I know business in the community have been urging employers to ban the box, and look to those with criminal records as possible recruits.
Shuchika: And it was very interesting to talk to your colleague when I was in UK, and discussed and exchanged ideas around that. I think we have to do more there. But I give myself a 10 on 10 on that, no, not yet. [chuckles] But, uh, you know, I think we have to evolve a view around that, uh, very soon. And-and look, for me, inclusion is really not about gender, or LGBTQ, or, uh, ethnicity. Inclusion is about bringing different thoughts around the table. Now, that could- that could be represented by very, very different things, or very, very different kinds of people than what you and I are used to in terms of inclusion. And we have to get there. We haven’t got there as yet.
Sarah: Sabrina, let’s bring you in on this, because this podcast is all about responsible business, and I wanted to hear about organizations striving to make their businesses either fairer, greener, um, more inclusive, uh, working together with others. Tell us about Bühler, and tell us about your leadership I suppose within Bühler, even though you probably think you’re not there yet, you’re definitely promoting change, and you’re looking to the future.
Sabrina: Sustainability is a big topic, and it’s also very important for our company, and, sustainability, I would always include like, um, the things that you don’t see at the first sight such as like focusing on diversity and inclusion because it basically makes sure that this company is going to be existing in the next decade as well. So, having a sustainable change in place where inclusion is an important topic. But on the other hand as well, if we look at sustainability in what we do within our companies, because we have such a big impact in the world with our machines, we-we make sure that they are working more sustainable.
So, I get the goals right from the top from our leadership that they tell us, “Look, these machines need to be more efficient. You are not allowed to produce, um, too much waste in the process, and reduce the water consumption of the machines within the process,” and things like that. Where we have clear goals from the company that I then in product management need to implement in the- in the business planning for the development of-of the future machines, because this has a major impact in-in the whole world, basically.
Sarah: Absolutely. Now, in Business in the Community’s recent report, um, what if your job was good for you? It created two calls to action for employers. So, put a touch on the first one, to achieve parity between the management of physical health and safety, and mental health and safety with an open and accountable culture.
Shuchika: So, let me talk about physical wellness first, and I think a lot of organizations over the years have covered distance on this because, you give basic benefits on medical to people insurance, and-and being able to get them to participate in that, and that creates, uh, a certain participation in the healthcare space for employees, and-and be out there. The second piece is mental wellness, which has gained huge currency over the last few years. Um, so, all our medical partners across our markets have employee assistance programs, and, uh, colleagues can reach out to them. But, if you really think about this, where you have a partner, and you can reach out to them in need, uh, it-it means that the event has already occurred.
Shuchika: The-the lack of wellness has already occurred, and-and this is more a cure rather than a prevention. Organizations are now taking cognizance of themselves as stress creators, and how to really handle that, more so after the pandemic. What we’ve done is we’ve created huge emphasis on mental wellness. And you see a lot of events and activities happening across the organization, whether it is yoga classes, Zumba classes, classes on topics that were taboo.
So, we had, uh, a group of women coming together in the UK and talking about their menopause, and how that has impacted their work lives. And it’s a brave thing that’s happening in the UK, uh, across organizations, so we are no exception to that. We also have created this whole event mindset around wellness, which is, we-we ran a Global Wellness Week, which lasted for almost a month, not a week. So, that was the other, uh, initiative. I have– I’m still wrapping my head around on how this-this has to be not outside of work, but in the flow of work.
Shuchika: And I think for me, the most important thing is work on the capability of my managers and leaders, because, if I can demonstrate empathy very naturally in my team, I think that will create more wellness and less workplace stress than going to these classes, and these events which are outside of, sometimes your work schedule, and you have to make time for them. My manager knew empathetically what was my response to stress, and what gets me triggered. He or she will work around that, and will have a way to approach me, and-and that’s what true wellness is.
How do you treat your employees? How do you check in on them? How do you give them less stress at work, and how do you work with their energy, and balance, and positivity? We are paying a lot of emphasis on manager capability at the moment. We are rolling out programs, we are talking to managers, we are creating networks for them to learn together.
Shuchika: And I think it’s, again, a journey. It’s-it’s not fully done, it’s a journey. And I think every year will be better than the year before that. So, that’s on the cards.
Sarah: It is really interesting, that whole leadership development space now, isn’t it? Because, there are certain people that just don’t want to manage people. They’re good managers, but they-they like the processes, but they don’t want to manage the people. And so much of that is about nearly going into the area of counseling, not quite maybe coaching and counseling at times too, and some people think, “You know what, I don’t get paid enough for all of that.” But, what I was really interested in reading in your bio is that, you do coaching pro bono. You believe–
Shuchika: Yeah, believe in it. Yeah. Look, it’s helped me massively when I was doing my coaching course, and I was given coaches. It helped me massively. That’s what I try to give back. I’m still not a fully certified coach. I’m still a couple of months– few months away from my certification, so I wouldn’t call myself a coach. I would still call myself someone who’s practicing coaching.
Sarah: Me too. Me too. I’ve been doing that. That was- that was my little pandemic, uh-uh, trying to achieve that. Absolutely, and it is – it is absolutely brilliant in all aspects of your life, isn’t it? It definitely makes you-
Sarah: -a better person. I mentioned the two calls to action, and of, what of your job is good for you? Sabrina, I’m going to come to you with the second call to action, which was to enable employees to co-create their own good jobs, supported by managers, and aligned with organizational practices and policies. So, as a young leader, Sabrina, how do you think this can be achieved?
Sabrina: So, I think we at Bühler have a good example for that with our grassroots movement that we call Generation B. So, basically, we created this network for all employees that wanted to do more than just their jobs. We built that with the support of our top management, which was really helpful, and we have different initiatives such as Women in STEM, but also the sustainable foods initiative for people, make sure that the diets are gonna be questioned, like how-how do we eat? How are we moving around?
So, literally that every employee can bring in a topic that he’s– he-he or she’s passionate about, and then work on it. And I think if you give the space to let grassroots movement grow within a company and support it by the top management to really put an emphasize on it, I think you can really, uh, make your 9:00 to 5:00 job so much more interesting, and-and really work also about topics that you’re personally passionate about. And I think this brings you into, and also to this-this balance.
Sarah: I totally agree. Now. Um, we’ve learned a lot about ourselves. We’ve learned a lot about the world. We’ve learned a lot about our organizations during this last couple of years. Um, final question for each of you, Shuchika, first of all, what’s the one thing you’re personally committed to doing less of, or more of, or both to positively impact the world?
Shuchika: I wanna increase my own empathy. I think I’ve started this journey a few years back. I-I think the biggest value you can bring to another person is-is giving them your kindness, and your empathy. All of us are connected by shared human experience. And it was amplified to us during the pandemic. I don’t wanna lose that. I just wanna be on that journey.
Sarah: Stop the judging and have more empathy. Absolutely. Sabrina, same question to you.
Sabrina: I think I should stop feeling like, that I need to do everything on my own, and get help from-from the right people, and put them in the right places, because, there’s only one Sabrina, but if I can be passionate about it, talk about things that I feel are important, and then basically get other people to work on the same things, we are this bigger group of people that can bring in change. So I think really asking for help, and then involving the right people to work on the right things is something that I should do more. [chuckles]
Sarah: I agree with you on that one too, absolutely. Delegate and work with people who are even better than you.
Sarah: It has been a joy to talk to you both today. Uh, Sabrina and Shuchika, thank you so much for joining us on the Lens.
Sabrina: Thank you very much.
Shuchika: Thank you very much.
Sarah: You’ve been listening to The Lens, and if your business would like help with gender equality, find out more about our gender equality roadmap, and see who made this year’s The Times top 50 employers for women. Visit bitc.org.uk.